@aral 👏 👏 👏

@aral Reminds me of the people who say "I'm not political".
Yes they are, their politics are just (percieved by them as) the default.

@aral 99.9999% of no politics clauses actually mean, we are out and out fascists but you are not allowed to comment on that as you build improved IBM Punch Cards for their concentration camps.

@aral agree with your toot. It's great. Everything is political. FOSS is political. The exclusion of the diversity by the name of "no politics" is a political choice.

@aral "No politics please!" is the sort of argument a politician would make.

@aral Everything is political, it's one of the facets that most man-made things have.

Why does the US and Japan have the same outlets? Taiwan too? And the power standard is mostly the same? 🤔

Why do TVs scan left to right? Does it have anything to do with how English is written? 🤔

@aral
Let me give you the other side: I suspect that the developer here wants to code with the least amount of noise. Such an issue with lots of noise from non-contributors does not help.

Feedback from users and/or developers that this bothers them is useful. Polite feedback as to why it matters to potential contributors may also help.

Lots of noise only serves to have the developer dig in further.

@aral This is true. No politics is only possible from a position of privilege

Still, people do sometimes get tired of politics. And their internal motivations for doing things often exclude politics

I've often said that #woke is the greatest ideology of all, but at the same time it is also so incredibly difficult that no person in this world can pull it off all the time

This is why I call for wisdom, and compassion for those who cannot see their own error. Turning them against woke is worse!

@aral aka "news flash: black and white statements usually have grey areas".

@aral This is exactly what I discovered when I looking into the SerenityOS issue. The PR to change "he" to "they" was shot down citing "no politics".
https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity/pull/6814#issuecomment-830793992
And then there's also the Helldivers thing about not wanting to make cloaks themed around the tranz flag colors.
Heck, this "no politics" card seems pretty easy to use when you just want to ignore the existence of queer or non-cisgender people, as if there existence is political.

@aral Alternatively "no politics" could actually mean straight up that at no point no political discussions, opinions or anything is allowed within the spaces of the community. "No politics" combined with an absolute "no discrimination" clause is exactly what I think most communities should adopt.

(Anyone can feel free to reply to share their opinion.)

@aral now is not the time, Aral https://mastodon.social/@urlyman/112717725140474421

@aral My father-in-law used to say "Politics is the food on your table".

@aral My teenage daughter told me she’s “not into politics” — which is hilarious because she lives in the SF Bay Area and just doesn’t realize what politics is.

I asked her if she thought her friends should be able to choose their pronouns.

“Well, that’s just being kind, not politics.”

@aral
Like the old saying goes:

There are two races - white and political.

There are two sexual preferences - straight and political.

There are two genders - men and political.

@aral If someone’s objection over personal “politics” has nothing to do with lawmaking, politicians, or elections, then they’re not opposed to politics; they’re just assholes.

@aral one of the things that no one commenting on your observation that technology is political noted… wait that sounds too complicated. “No politics “also means “no unions “ . No political organization to take the side of the tech workers. Don’t argue! Get back to work!🍸🐈

@aral So you're good with anti-abortion advocacy at work?

@aral Is that about #ladybird?😏

@aral Female hair is either long or political. Sexual orientation is either heterosexual or political. Gender identity is either cis or political. Clothing is either gender stereotyped and boring or political. City infrastructure is either car-focused or political. Energy is either fossil fuels or political. Education is either white christian propaganda or political.

Everything follows the same pattern, tech included.

@aral

If your project or organisation has a “no politics” clause, you’re saying you’re happy to exclude people whose very existence is political in our societies.

I know that's how it often works out in practice: "no politics" meaning "my politics", but from a reasonable perspective, it's the exclusion of people for who they are that is political. "No politics" should mean "don't you dare exclude or discriminate anyone for who they are".

@aral I'd say many people do that without malice. They are just so used to the privileged position they internalised as normal (which society promotes) that they are unable to realize what they're doing.

Some are even very receptive when you show them that, and turn into quite powerful allies.

@aral I think you should expand that to Science AND Technology are political.
There is no greater indication of the fact that certain politicians attack the science they find unpalatable.

@aral

Paraphrasing from the field of research, there’s no such thing as apolitical, everyone’s got a political position whether we acknowledge it or state it explicitly or not. The opposite of politics isn’t “no politics” it’s bad politics.

@aral @scottmatter *all* labor is political - you sell your skills, effort, and time for a return and *who* you sell it to matters. What you do and how you do it matters. Work is observable as a political act.

@aral this is why I'm deadset against the dickheads who demanded politics be CWed. Not only is that massive toxic privilege, it stifles those of us whose very survival is dictated by political winds.

I say fuck em, and post in their faces!

@aral,

Everything that happens in a civilized society is political. Everything you do is political. Also, everything that you *don't do* is political as well. A decision to "stay out of politics" is also political. In fact, even if you really meant it and literally moved to an uninhabited island and cut off all contact with the rest of humanity, that would be a political decision as well.

@aral politiycised, really. Our existence is politicised. It shouldn't be political, but it's made political by people who don't want us to exist at all.

@aral I honestly do not see how it follows. Is the argument that we can not separate people from their work and political motivations?

@aral

people whose very existence is political in our societies

Who made my existence political and why do I need to play by their rules?

@aral Not political = 🇺🇦 ,
Political = 🇵🇸

@aral

A very privileged thing to say, not surprising from someone with the look a white man.

Have you ever had to be a jew listening to antisemitic comments but it's a political debate and you're a minority and don't want to cause a fuss so you keep to yourself

People supporting anti Trans, anti LGBT agendas, parties and countries. Being a woman or an immigrant or a fugitive discussed as a political matter.

So easy to ignore how toxic a place it can create, when it's not aimed at you.

@aral @theory I don’t know how this is translated for most country cultures but in the US if a place is “not political” you can bet your ass it’s only enforced against things done by people in the outgroup.

I’ve never seen a “no politics” workplace let gay couples bring photos of their spouses for their desks but kick out a straight person for doing the same. Not once.

@aral Thank you for saying it!

You're absolutely right here. Define politics: The only consistent meaning I've heard is "The study of the distribution of limited resources." In this case, for a start, we could take "jobs" as one limited resource. The tech sector gives more jobs to men than to women. Right away this is a political act, and refusing to discuss it is acting in support of it.

Something about trying to deny having personal responsibilities as an inevitable part of being born in this world. . .

@aral In liberal democracies “Politics” is usually meant narrowly as “party politics” which is portrayed as a horse race between jack asses. So folks turn off about politics (and many pols like that).

Politics is how we ‘decide’ to live together, and who has the power to influence that. Which is why we get to vote for or against representatives, but have no similar democratic rights at work regarding bosses(this is a very bad situation IMHO).
Politics could be different.

@aral Lately, an event proposal for collectively watching a debate of @epicenter_works from an engaged student has been rejected at my university since it was "too political".

However, a public viewing of a European championship soccer match was allowed. 🙄 The university administration itself took care of the organization.

Background: The same student was telling the dean – who rejected the event proposal – in a lecture that it's racist to say "You know, the common russian is spying on us".

@aral #CommonSense, #VoiceOfReason have been voided of meaning in a similar manner, being all time favourites in the conflict management phrasebook to silence dissent top down: "Y'all *just* have to calm down!" Also #1 abuse of #NonViolentCommunication: "Why? I am communicating non violent, he's the asshole!"

@aral Usually the meaning of "no politics" clause means "no off-topic politics", because it is usually: a waste of time; divisive; without beneficial effects on the real-world.

You cannot solve all the problems of the world in a project. So you had to decide what are on-topic business politic decisions that are worth to discuss and share, and what it is outside of project scope.

@aral As in the old "we're not political, we always vote Conservative".

@aral ok, so how do you say "so your polity will have elections and you care a lot, and one or two other persons on our lists may, too, but the rest of us don't live there and don't care, put a sock in about how great 'your' politician is, this is not your canvassing venue"?

Just because the US right have weaponized the words "politics" to mean "everything of any societal impact" and "polite" to mean "I can harass anybody not white+male" we can't use them any more? Which can we use instead?

@aral
If you talk about politics every. single. day. you will indeed start to believe that non-political things are political. Inclusion is nowhere near a political problem. It is a social problem. Talking about the problem 24/7 isn't going to solve it. Actions solve this problem.

No politics means "we don't want to hear about every single issue in the world because this project won't ever be able to solve all of them, so let's put our energy into actually making this particular program better"

We should definitely do our best to make technology accessible for everyone; The recent incident with a certain project shows there is a long way ahead of us. But the problem you mentioned has nothing to do with politics, rather it is a social issue which is a very big difference.

@aral

The London Hackspace doesn't have a "No Politics" rule.

It has a "No political conversations on the mailing list" rule.

This reduces flame-wars and online arguments.

What our members say to each other in-person is their own responsibility. :D