hhmx.de

· Föderation · Di 08.04.2025 20:14:07

@delta You imply Chatmail is interoperable with non-Chatmail email. My understanding so far has been that Chatmail -- the newly-default mode of DeltaChat that runs on specially-configured servers -- breaks DeltaChat's core benefit of being able to communicate with anyone with an email address; this is due to Chatmail's mandatory encryption and novel key exchange protocol that isn't widely supported or used. OpenPGP and AutoCrypt do enjoy some support in niche MUAs, but most email users are on Gmail or Outlook¹ which don't support either. It may be possible to do this excruciatingly manually or with a specialized external tool (which doesn't exist), but for most people, this breaks the main reason anyone would choose DeltaChat over, say, XMPP+OMEMO.

¹ okay maybe Outlook does, if you configure it, maybe only if you're a paying enterprise user, and only OpenPGP and not AutoCrypt.

Föderation EN Di 08.04.2025 20:27:15

@blake

1) Many people want end to end encryption by default and only. Signal has dropped SMS chats three years ago. Mixing cleartext and e2ee is problematic from a usable security pov

2) Several operators in repressive situations/environments want to be sure their servers do not contain data that can hurt people. Strictly requiring end to end encryption helps.

3) We use IETF standardized protocols for interoperability and discuss with other MUA devs and help where we can.

Föderation EN Di 08.04.2025 20:44:12

@blake @delta
"this breaks the main reason anyone would choose DeltaChat over, say, XMPP+OMEMO."

I think if people use xmpp and delta chat for a while, the reason why they keep on using delta chat is not email compatibility. People should just try out.

(I still keep on using xmpp next to delta chat because I think it can be useful to have more than one open protocol)

Föderation · Di 08.04.2025 21:42:26

@ulfi @delta Whether or how often you use a certain chat app depends on who you can talk to with it. For example, I wouldn't use WhatsApp if I didn't have a friend whose parents won't let them use anything else. And I would use Signal, DeltaChat, or Conversations/XMPP if someone I knew also used that app. (There are actually a couple people I know on Fedi I use Signal with from time to time.)

Now, assuming you and all your friends have both apps, which one you'd use then depends on how comfortable those are to use. For example, if your friends are in a group chat and group chats tend to break on one (cough cough XMPP), you'd pick the other one. If one is slow and drops messages, or is missing some important feature the other one has, such as anonymous¹ messages, chat apps, or formatting, you're going to use the other one. You're right that there is an edge towards DeltaChat on this one, though on occasion XMPP does still win (and Signal sits in the middle).

¹ XMPP MUCs have a semi-anonymous mode where the group's admin can see the members' real JIDs, but other members can't. Maybe you're a woman and you don't want men from your group chat sliding into your DMs. DeltaChat could possibly recreate this using the mailing-list pattern, but standard DeltaChat group chats can't support it.

Föderation EN Di 08.04.2025 22:36:45

@blake @ulfi there are many dynamics why people choose to use X or Y or both. Delta is used increasingly by families, friends, organizers and activists in repressive contexts but it can not convert "the masses". We intentionally stay clear from VC funding even if it could help buy hype and mind share and accelerated developments like it did with matrix. Our approach aims to reliably function in an increasingly fragmenting/splintering Internet, where other solutions fail, now or in the future.