Föderation EN Mi 15.01.2025 23:57:27
Introducing 🍵 Maptcha 🗺️
the #opensource CAPTCHA that improves #OpenStreetMap !
Maptcha is at its alpha stage, and we are testing it on potential users. To take part in the test, please follow this link:
https://maptcha.crown-shy.com
You have ~one week time to take part and give us some feedback.
We’ll present the results at #fosdem2025 in the Geospatial devroom
Föderation EN Do 16.01.2025 01:14:59
@ciupava @grischard @soporificoctopus Interesting project. Some feedback -
1. It's not clear what "swipe left" or "swipe right" means. Is it swipe _to_ the left/right, or swipe _from_ the left/right? UIs usually show a color and some text as you start to swipe, to give you a hint.
1/3
Föderation EN Do 16.01.2025 01:15:28
@ciupava @grischard @soporificoctopus
2. I usually like to be able to zoom in and also hide the data to check outline correctness, but there's no way to do that here. A no-interaction way would be to slowly blink the building outline.
2/3
Föderation EN Do 16.01.2025 07:33:03
@contrapunctus @ciupava @grischard @soporificoctopus I agree. I was squinting my eyes moving my phone back and forth.
I found the item in the questionare about zoom levels unclear.
Föderation EN Do 16.01.2025 01:15:45
Föderation EN Do 16.01.2025 12:03:14
@contrapunctus @ciupava @grischard @soporificoctopus yeah what happens in that case? Is it correct or not?
Föderation EN Do 16.01.2025 16:57:11
@amapanda @contrapunctus @ciupava @soporificoctopus it's not - there's no correct outline around a building. We'll probably remove these "true negative" cases in the next version.
Föderation EN Do 16.01.2025 02:26:12
@ciupava @grischard @soporificoctopus
What I can say: takes some time getting used to the swipe on the computer. The buttons are also not super responsive, which confuses me a bit
But thanks a lot for this SUPER NICE initiative!
Föderation EN Do 16.01.2025 07:32:21
@ciupava @grischard @soporificoctopus Great tool.
Some feedback. Sometimes there is no red shape at all.
Föderation EN Do 16.01.2025 09:25:48
@pac @ciupava @grischard @soporificoctopus Yup, just got this:
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Föderation EN Do 16.01.2025 08:35:25
@ciupava @grischard @soporificoctopus
is that demo site supposed to repeat the same few pictures over and over?
Föderation EN Do 16.01.2025 08:55:50
@ciupava @grischard My first though would be: how will you handle accessibility here? As vision-impaired users may not be able to fill in visual captchas.
Föderation EN Do 16.01.2025 09:00:16
@ciupava @grischard @soporificoctopus what’s your plan for accessibility?
Föderation EN Do 16.01.2025 11:15:28
@morre @ciupava @grischard @soporificoctopus I was wondering the same. I had a hard time finding a red outline in many of the pictures at all without zooming in. And I am only colourblind and not even a hard case in that.
So for that specific case maybe use a different colour for the outline? Although I am not sure how people with other types of colourblindness react to other colours.
And that still leaves the question what the plan is for people with other visual restrictions.
Föderation EN Do 16.01.2025 14:32:50
@der_mit_ph @morre @ciupava @soporificoctopus good point! Maybe cyan would provide more contrast. In a next version, we want to be zoomed in on the building so it's clear what place we're talking about, and have some kind of transparency or buffer so the edges are visible.
Föderation EN Do 16.01.2025 09:39:52
@ciupava @grischard @soporificoctopus
Some images dows not have a marked building at all so its neither correcly nor incorrectly mapped.
Same Images come again and again
Föderation EN Do 16.01.2025 09:51:44
@ciupava @grischard @soporificoctopus overall I think the idea in interesting, however, I see a few issues at the moment:
1. this seems completely non-accessible
2. I think it requires more detailed instructions
- how precisely must the shape match? (some examples have a hand-drawn shape, some are zoomed in to show there is a slight inconsistency, though the shape is almost good... are they correct, are they not?)
- must it be a single buildings or are multiple buildings OK?
1/2
Föderation EN Do 16.01.2025 09:55:14
@ciupava @grischard @soporificoctopus as others have noted, being able to turn off the red outline (e.g. long press and hold?) would be a welcome improvement.
Great idea though, I hope it takes off!
Föderation EN Do 16.01.2025 10:26:06
@ciupava @grischard @soporificoctopus what's the accessibility fallback for people who have some kind of sight impairment?
I think even a red-green color blindness would pose issues on a photo with red outline and a lot of grass.
Getting blurred/low resolution vision is also an issue in low contrast situations.
Here's an example of red on red:
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Föderation EN Do 16.01.2025 10:53:17
@ciupava @grischard @soporificoctopus
i really like the idea, but see some accessibility issues and the other things people already mention here. (and i hinted at in the questionaire at the end of the demo)
some of those buildings are so hard to detect, it could also have been a trailer or something. especially when objects get small.
Föderation EN Do 16.01.2025 12:01:27
@ciupava @grischard @soporificoctopus sounds great but what about accessibility? 🤔
👏 👏 👏 for the release
Föderation EN Do 16.01.2025 12:04:46
@ciupava @grischard @soporificoctopus did a first try, I genuinely can't tell 🤷
what I am supposed to do? No "I don't know" or "skip" button?
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Föderation EN Do 16.01.2025 12:04:51
@ciupava @grischard @soporificoctopus like others I often get the same one a few times, or get no outline
Sometimes the building is cut by the edge of the image, and the red line goes along the edge of the image.
Föderation EN Do 16.01.2025 14:59:22
@ciupava @grischard @soporificoctopus
hmm, some of the images aren't zoomed in enough to decide, like this one...
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Föderation EN Do 16.01.2025 15:31:06
@ciupava @grischard @soporificoctopus So the first obvious problem is that some of the images have highlighted areas that are just too small to be able tell what's going on and the second problem is that after doing half a dozen or so screens I have yet to see a single case that I was prepared to mark as an accurate outline - in other words it had detected a building but had failed to generate an accurate outline.
Föderation EN Do 16.01.2025 15:41:26
@tomh @ciupava @soporificoctopus yeah the AI algorithms don't generate good outlines; certainly not good enough to put on OSM. The idea is that humans clicking on the captcha would tell us there's an unmapped building there, for a tool which would tell mappers.
Yes, some of the outlines are too small to see, and the red outline covers the edge, and doesn't have enough contrast on red ground - we'll fix it in a next version.
Föderation EN Do 16.01.2025 16:44:51
@grischard @ciupava @soporificoctopus The problem is the prompt asks for "images where the red shape is correctly outlining a building" which suggests the outline needs to be correct rather than just that it needs to have located a building so that probably needs some tweaking.
Föderation EN Do 16.01.2025 17:46:07
@tomh @ciupava @grischard @soporificoctopus oh it has to be accurate? I was selecting correct if the outline was "eh there is a building here" rather than "that's good mapping"
(ie it looks like me and TomH read the same text differently)
Föderation EN Do 16.01.2025 17:30:40
@ciupava
@grischard @soporificoctopus If it is supposed to be a CAPTCHA alternative, maybe throw in some known bad outlines? That would also give a human some kind if confidence for their selection.
Föderation EN Do 16.01.2025 18:05:30
@SchwarzeLocke @ciupava @soporificoctopus there should be some bad ones in there. You’re right that we should systematically include known bad ones!
Föderation EN Do 16.01.2025 18:06:48
@ciupava @grischard @soporificoctopus How am I supposed to interpret this? And I don't suffer from reduced vision or anything, I'm just tired after 8h of work.
My two cents: this is a terrible idea. 'outlining' a building is no easy task. You mean one floor? One `building:part`? When talking about long rows of houses, just one or all of them?
This is confusing, time-consuming to parse, and probably in the capabilities of a computer vision Python script.
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Föderation EN Do 16.01.2025 18:10:23
There are a lot of color-blind people.
Föderation EN Do 16.01.2025 20:06:25
@ciupava @grischard @soporificoctopus As a non-native English speaker, I had a hard time to understand the instructions. And I was puzzled because in a number of images there is no "red shape" I can spot. Overall I feel not competent enough to succeed this test...
Föderation EN Do 16.01.2025 20:20:50
@ciupava @grischard @soporificoctopus
Not clear what to do when the building is almost correctly surrounded.
Also on mobile the red area can be very small and needs zooming to see. Maybe autozoom every time so the red part is 1/4 of image size.
Föderation EN Do 16.01.2025 21:19:08
@ciupava @grischard @soporificoctopus
Maybe let users switch the color or let the outline blink.
You should be able to zoom in.
“Correctly outlining a building” is not easy to understand, and not well defined. ONE building? A WHOLE building? A good outline or any that more or less catches a building? Some little rectangle might be something else than a building: just a roof, a container, a trailer, concrete on the ground…
Maybe add roads/rivers: Does this line mark a road/river?