Föderation EN Mo 16.12.2024 12:08:17 this morning I've made the choice to close 300 forum sites that have about 275k monthly active users, nearly all from the UK. I've run forums for over 28 years, and did so to build families for those without families, to try and create a cure for social isolation and loneliness, to combat suicide, to create joy and love out of nothing but connections between people. and it worked. it still works. but on the 16th March 2025 I will delete the virtual servers running it all... that date is important, it's the last day before the UK Online Safety Act goes into enforcement. I run these communities philanthropically, giving my time and money to do so, I ask nothing back, I just help build a nicer World. but the scope of the Act is too broad, and my forums come under it... it does not matter that it's run by an individual and not a company, that it loses money every month... merely by being linked to the UK and allowing users to speak to users... it's within scope. the penalties of non-compliance would be so devastatingly ruinous to me, that I don't see I have a choice... I must now perform a social harm to protect myself. this is devastating. https://www.lfgss.com/conversations/401475/ I cannot even express what these forums have achieved... the marriages, births, support for those with cancer, the love, the communities they have created. |
Föderation EN Mo 16.12.2024 12:55:30 @dee 😟😟😟 |
Föderation EN Mo 16.12.2024 13:09:12 @dee I may have to hang my hobby OS on the nail with the last law change over here too, and I hate the very idea (I may be lucky and the fact it’s not i10d may help categorise it as "not typically used by kids" so I don’t fall under that law but… whi knows) why can’t we have nice things 🤬 |
Föderation EN Mo 16.12.2024 14:13:18 @dee Oh shit, I'm sorry. Every day it seems like the UK is getting closer to becoming the US, honestly. Hopefully y'all will be able to stop it before it gets to our level. |
Föderation · Mo 16.12.2024 15:06:42 How is the US that bad? The US has the strongest free speech on the planet. |
Föderation EN Mo 16.12.2024 14:57:16 @dee Maybe someone else would be willing to accept that risk. May be worth seeing if someone, possibly already using your services would be willing to take over. |
Föderation EN Mo 16.12.2024 15:04:30 @dee This seems like something your MP, or MPs of soon-to-be-affected members of your fora, should hear loudly and clearly. I have no idea if it is too late in the lawmaking process for that sort of thing, but bad legislation is bad legislation. Better to challenge it now than through the courts. 275k active users is a lot - that is a voice that, if unified, can be awfully loud. |
Föderation EN Mo 16.12.2024 15:25:47 @Brad_Rosenheim @dee It is too late. Act was implemented last year. And I, and many others, wrote to our MPs. I would probably say that I wouldn't be too worried (unless you're the size of Facebook etc; against which this law was mostly written). OFCOM isn't particularly well staffed enough to proceed with million dollar liability claims against small operators; but that is a risk that everyone needs to weigh for themselves of course. And I also wish I wouldn't have to think of it. 😞 |
Föderation EN Mo 16.12.2024 15:35:55 @derickr - Laws can be amended. 🙂 @dee - Wow, I'm so sorry to hear of this. Site unseen (as it were), I thank you for what you've done for those people. You've been *very* patient with everyone's "What if you do..." comments in this thread. Clearly you realise people mean well, but I'm sure it gets a bit tiresome. And so I apologise for adding another one, but: I wonder if it would be worth contacting The Guardian and/or BBC News. This is a compelling story of just how problematic this law is as currently written. You never know, it could snowball. Your 275k users, then someone else with a similar situation affecting 100k more, etc., etc. Yes, Labour were complicit in this legislation, but they'll be more amenable to updating it in the face of stories like this than the Tories would... Regardless what you do or don't do, randos like me are sending you good vibes. Take care of yourself. |
Föderation EN Mo 16.12.2024 16:06:05 @derickr @Brad_Rosenheim that risk is also non-zero... the number of times I've been forced to moderate someone and the subsequent anger and actions from that person. things I've encountered are being signed up to porn sites, death threats, stalking behaviour (online and IRL), threats of violence, abuse... what the Act does is provide another weapon to those people to hurt and attack moderators and site admins, and now with huge liability and risks. I do not imagine OfCom give a hoot about these sites, but I do believe they will be obliged to follow up on complaints, and that the complaints will be like a form of legal SWATting against those who operate communities. the liability is far far too high, and the risk not low enough, even though I've had not one incident that the Act tries to prevent in 28.5 years of running forums. |
Föderation EN Mo 16.12.2024 16:32:57 @dee @Brad_Rosenheim Yeah, I totally understand where you're coming from. Annoyingly, there is another bill going through parliament which will lower more user-data protections: https://www.openrightsgroup.org/publications/briefing-data-use-and-access-bill-hl/ |
Föderation EN Mo 16.12.2024 15:36:21 @dee Dee, I'm so sorry to hear that you need to do this. And I totally understand: "Low risk" of being ruined by a malicious party is not "NO risk" and you need to take care of your responsibilities. Thanks for what you've facilitated 'til now. 🙏 I've no doubt, you will do other, also good, things after this, in other ways. ❤ |
Föderation EN Mo 16.12.2024 16:17:06 @dee I was never a member of LFGSS but I've known of it for decades and I know many people who spoke fondly of it. Thank you for all you've done. I rather suspect the end result of the Online Safety Act won't be as bad as it looks, but OFCOM has continued to leave small sites in limbo with their guidance, and at any rate I wouldn't want to run one without the protection of a limited company in future... |
Föderation EN Mo 16.12.2024 16:21:14 @russss officers of a limited company are still liable according to the Act. and the risk is low on the face of it, but the liabilities are high. however... it's a forum. I've taken moderator decisions and had individuals get so angry they applied to ICANN to revoke the domain name, I've banned people and received death threats... I've run so many large communities and forums as an individual that I've been the target of lawsuits from angry individuals. this time it's different... the liabilities too high, and OfCom are unpredictable but would follow up on complaints, and angry people moderated to ensure safe communities will weaponise the Act against site owners. it sucks, this ends 28 years of something incredibly successful, a huge social good, because I can't accept all that liability being weaponised by the very people that we moderate to keep communities safe. |
Föderation EN Mo 16.12.2024 17:12:10 @dee That sounds like a tough choice that you shouldn't have had to make. I am sorry. I have run forums before. A lot of work, a lot of conflict, but often rewarding (not financially though. I don't know what the different communities are, but would be happy to help create a new home for some of them if they align with my callings. |
Föderation EN Mo 16.12.2024 17:32:06 @dee maybe the @BBCRadio4 @BBC_News_Labs @BBCRD |
Föderation EN Mo 16.12.2024 17:32:31 @dee |
Föderation EN Mo 16.12.2024 17:45:02 @AlisonW thanks Alison, and yes it's a bit crazy, I never thought it would pass in that form, but the implementation of it seems even messier than the Act itself... I already have a demanding day job, so all of the work I did to run communities was squeezed in around that, so even trying to campaign and bring awareness is more than I can give. it's a mess. |
Föderation EN Mo 16.12.2024 17:49:03 @dee |
Föderation EN Mo 16.12.2024 17:50:12 @dee |
Föderation EN Mo 16.12.2024 17:47:31 @dee so sorry to hear. What’s happening to the data, can you donate it to archive.org or some UK archive? |
Föderation EN Mo 16.12.2024 17:50:11 @Sie I'll consider the public facing, but a lot of forums is private, these things are icebergs. I don't know that I have the right to change the visibility by making it public |
Föderation EN Mo 16.12.2024 18:13:19 |
Föderation EN Mo 16.12.2024 17:48:55 @dee I'm wondering if this will hit people running Mastodon servers in the UK too, like the one I'm posting from? |
Föderation EN Mo 16.12.2024 17:50:33 @CGM yes, I believe they would. |
Föderation EN Mo 16.12.2024 19:02:27 @CGM @dee it would but there are clarifications from ofcom about what they’re actually going to actually go after and it’s clear most mastodon instances are too small. Edit: reference for size threshold is https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-statements/detail/2024-12-16/HCWS312 |
Föderation EN Mo 16.12.2024 19:03:56 @clare_hooley @CGM unless you get a disgruntled user with a revenge motive... as I've learned to never under-estimate someone with a grudge. enough complaints filed with OfCom and the smallest site will face action, everything is already in scope, this would just bring it to their attention. |
Föderation EN Mo 16.12.2024 19:12:55 @clare_hooley @dee Thanks, could you point me to where to find these clarifications? |
Föderation EN Mo 16.12.2024 19:15:33 @CGM in fact I’d just edited above to include the confirmation of size thresholds for the categories (sorry, on a train can’t look up more right now!). |
Föderation EN Mo 16.12.2024 19:28:53 @clare_hooley Thanks very much, but after reading through that statement I'm not much reassured. These categories are for services which will be subject to *additional* requirements in future. As far as I can see, smaller and even non-commercial services are not exempt from the standard requirements of the act, which are considerable, including up to £18M fines. 😲 |
Föderation EN Mo 16.12.2024 17:50:05 @dee Would this law also endanger people running Mastodon instances? |
Föderation EN Mo 16.12.2024 17:52:11 @jredlund yes, if you have "links to the UK" like UK people running it, hosting in the UK, or that most of your users are in the UK. although if you're entirely in Europe and some very high % of members are from outside the UK... then you're probably passing a reasonable threshold for not having links to the UK. |
Föderation EN Mo 16.12.2024 18:37:36 @dee Yeah, a lot of countries are starting to pass laws that make it difficult to run a server people use to communicate. I think we need a solution that doesn't require your profile and commentary be hosted by anyone. If everyone is their own host publishing their own content that is just integrated then stuff like this just doesn't apply. Then it's all just your content, even other peoples' comments on your content are hosted somewhere else by other people that can be filtered by the user. |
Föderation EN Mo 16.12.2024 19:07:23 🙁 |