hhmx.de

Michael Stanclift

Michael Stanclift (@vmstan@vmst.io)

Föderation EN Do 01.08.2024 16:32:15

@doug @jerry I'm going to stand up for the devs here and say that they absolutely do factor in these things, just not always in the ways that are most apparent. There are a number of features that don't get added (at least as quickly as folks demand) specifically because of their impact on user privacy, safety, security, etc. (Quote toots, for example.)

There's a triad of engagement, safety, and accessibility that has to be factored into everything. Then how those features are maintained going forward.

Jerry Bell :bell: :llama: :verified_paw: :verified_dragon: :rebelverified:ā€‹

Jerry Bell :bell: :llama: :verified_paw: :verified_dragon: :rebelverified:ā€‹ (@jerry@infosec.exchange)

Föderation EN Do 01.08.2024 16:35:56

@vmstan @doug Additionally, I am not sure what additional safety mechanisms are missing, to be honest. Perhaps making block lists more frictionless? Allowing admins to block certain words? (Which btw, would cause it's own set of backlash for flitering out legitimate use of some words)...

Renaud Chaput

Renaud Chaput (@renchap@oisaur.com)

Föderation EN Do 01.08.2024 16:46:34

@jerry word-based filtering has many many issues. As server blocklists do. Before having tools that reinforce this, we want those tools to not be invisible to users and provide some auditing. Not doing so, in our experience, creates very bad experiences for users.
Add the fact that being a federated network makes most of the things much more difficult to implement properly.
@vmstan @doug

Renaud Chaput

Renaud Chaput (@renchap@oisaur.com)

Föderation EN Do 01.08.2024 16:51:20

@jerry and this is also why we introduced the severed relationship mechanism, as well as the (still needikg improvements) filtered notification system. Now that we have those, which allow more auditing and decision visibility, we will need to able to add more tools, like blocklist syncing.
@vmstan @doug

flere-imsaho

flere-imsaho (@mawhrin@circumstances.run)

Föderation EN Do 01.08.2024 19:20:35

@renchap mind, pleroma implemented things like MRF years ago (there's a helpful thread from ariadne conill that lists the pleroma moderation/security features); mastodon frequently ignored calls for implementation of such features or delayed them for years, and rochko managed to alienate many potential contributors by doing things like dropping already reviewed pull requests with implemented features because something irritated him.
@jerry @vmstan @doug

adamrice

adamrice (@adamrice@c.im)

Föderation EN Do 01.08.2024 17:11:42

@jerry @vmstan @doug Something that might help would be allowing individuals to subscribe to curated block lists, not just admins. Not sure how disruptive that would be to the fediverse.

bumblefudge

bumblefudge (@by_caballero@mastodon.social)

Föderation EN Do 01.08.2024 21:19:58

@adamrice @jerry @vmstan @doug blockpartyapp.com/#blockpartyc
^ This was a winning model, back when twitter's API was open

tom jennings

tom jennings (@tomjennings@tldr.nettime.org)

Föderation EN Do 01.08.2024 23:40:19

@adamrice @jerry @vmstan @doug

User-subscribable block lists seems both incredibly useful and technically less challenging.

adamrice

adamrice (@adamrice@c.im)

Föderation EN Fr 02.08.2024 16:32:38

@nikclayton @tomjennings @jerry @vmstan @doug It is cool that you are working on this.

Iā€™m not really a programmer, but it seems to me the bigger technical challenge with per-user block lists is preventing blocked griefers from seeing posts by the user with the block list. I would want to be invisible to those who I block.

Nik

Nik (@nikclayton@mastodon.social)

Föderation EN Fr 02.08.2024 17:03:01

@adamrice @tomjennings @jerry @vmstan @doug Yes. So to avoid confusion.

If you **block** an account or server on Mastodon that's what happens (docs.joinmastodon.org/user/mod).

The changes will drive client-side **server filtering**. This is not as "strong" as a block (as noted in the caveats section of the post) but it also avoids collateral damage.

The UX should make it easy for a user to go from "I am looking at a filtered post" to "I have blocked that account or server".

dynamic

dynamic (@dynamic@social.coop)

Föderation EN Fr 16.08.2024 22:26:10

@nikclayton @adamrice @tomjennings @jerry @vmstan @doug

I like the idea of user-level blocklists. I'm not enamored with the feature being confined to an app, but I guess it might be better than nothing.

An important caveat here is that if you make a *public* Mastodon post there is no way of completely preventing bad actors from viewing it, even if you block those users or instances.

Public posts can be viewed by loading their URL in any browser.

Doug

Doug (@doug@union.place)

Föderation EN Do 01.08.2024 17:56:47

@jerry
I think there are a lot of marginalised people - users, mods and admins - who would have a lot to say about additional safety features, and would appreciate being consulted in design and testing before it's released.
@vmstan

S Vermin Rose

S Vermin Rose (@rose@linuxrocks.online)

Föderation EN Do 01.08.2024 18:25:05

@jerry As we all know, Trust and Safety is hard, and a challenge is that when it fails it hits some users far harder than others. The idea that it's unduly onerous on those users to block trolls is new to me - I'm not a domain expert. But I want to hear Black voices, so their problem is, to an extent, my problem. Could a mitigation be curated block lists? I have a foggy recollection of such a facility being available on a certain legacy microblogging platform.

draeath

draeath (@draeath@social.sdf.org)

Föderation EN Do 01.08.2024 18:37:09

@jerry @vmstan @doug I've seen several people asking for some means to sync block lists cooperatively between instances. Not for post content, but for accounts etc.

Does that seem like a reasonable ask?

Petra van Cronenburg

Petra van Cronenburg (@NatureMC@mastodon.online)

Föderation EN Do 01.08.2024 20:50:55

@jerry I have no ideas about the programming. But it would help already if private blocking of people would be a real block and not only a "silencing". Often I can read everything in profiles that I blocked long before (only sometimes the profile is "not available"). So trolls often make screenshots for harassing people who have blocked them.

The other feature I liked on X: close a post completely for comments. A lot of people miss it.

@vmstan @doug

counterinduration

counterinduration (@counterinduration@kolektiva.social)

Föderation EN Do 01.08.2024 20:59:02

@jerry @vmstan @doug

I think opt out is a bad model for federation.

Doug

Doug (@doug@union.place)

Föderation EN Do 01.08.2024 18:03:54

@vmstan
I have utmost respect for the hard work if the devs, but I read the public roadmap and see barely any feature that relates to safety or accessibiliy.

I don't doubt it is going to be an aspect of some of the work, but read the original post of the thread, and where do we think anything is being actively worked or planned for that could alleviate the problems, for users or admins?

@jerry