hhmx.de

Laurens Hof

Laurens Hof (@laurenshof@indieweb.social)

Föderation EN Sa 07.09.2024 17:21:43

that this is one of the most popular posts on mastodon currently is a clear indication of how widely pervasive the reply-guy problem is here, and that its not just a few obnoxious person that contribute to the problem

when someone posts a link to a paywalled article, posting 'paywall-didnt read' is rude, obnoxious and simply unnecessary. the simply course of action is to ignore the post and move on. that nobody says so in the comments worries me

rollenspiel.social/@holothuroi

Ben Harris-Roxas

Ben Harris-Roxas (@ben_hr@old.mermaid.town)

Föderation EN Sa 07.09.2024 17:23:37

@laurenshof yeah, you're right.

Kari'boka

Kari'boka (@kariboka@social.harpia.red)

Föderation EN Sa 07.09.2024 17:25:34

@laurenshof for me it only shows 6 boosts. I don't like how #Mastodon doesn't show the actual numbers. This is a major flaw sold as feature.

Todd on :mastodon: ain

Todd on :mastodon: ain (@wtwagg@mastodon.social)

Föderation EN Sa 07.09.2024 17:32:50

@laurenshof I respectfully disagree. This doesn't bother me at all. I don't find it to be rude either.

Peter Toft Jølving

Peter Toft Jølving (@joelving@mastodon.joelving.dk)

Föderation EN Sa 07.09.2024 17:42:23

@laurenshof I would imagine people to consider such a reply appropriate in much the same situations as tl;dr, which I agree isn't very often.

My own interpretation of its popularity - and the reason I boosted it - is to convey the frustration felt being excluded from a discussion and (perhaps even more relevant) signal paywalled content as unconvincing when presented as part of an ongoing discussion by virtue of it being inaccessible.

Laurens Hof

Laurens Hof (@laurenshof@indieweb.social)

Föderation EN Sa 07.09.2024 17:59:26

@joelving archive.ph exists

but the bigger problem is still the need to let the other person know this via a reply. if you feel that youre not part of a discussion because of a paywalled link (a framing i have issues with, but lets assume that for now), why not the more simply reaction that the discussion is not for you and simply move on? the large majority of posts are not catered towards me, and thats completely normal

malena / bikes not bombs

malena / bikes not bombs (@seachanger@alaskan.social)

Föderation EN Sa 07.09.2024 18:43:35

@laurenshof @joelving it points to a more substantive and really irritating group of replies: “you, a stranger, need to perform labor so that I can possess your content”

this group includes the people demanding you Google for them, demanding you contact authors and get “more data”, demanding you go to archive ph instead of them etc

The root ideology is communitu without boundaries or consent

Peter Toft Jølving

Peter Toft Jølving (@joelving@mastodon.joelving.dk)

Föderation EN Sa 07.09.2024 19:27:22

@seachanger @laurenshof I should add that I would never find any of the contents appropriate for a drive-by comment. I'm not arguing that reply-guys wouldn't use the phrase in bad faith.

In the cases I'm describing, I'm already part of a conversation that will be shut down if we're no longer discussing the same things.

witchescauldron

witchescauldron (@witchescauldron@kolektiva.social)

Föderation EN Sa 07.09.2024 17:54:12

@laurenshof maybe a better solution is to add a or hashtag to post that are pointless to click on for 99.9% of the people who see them.

Q. who is responsible is always a useful question to ask? And check this with what is the "native" thing to do, ideas?

FinchHaven

FinchHaven (@FinchHaven@infosec.exchange)

Föderation EN Sa 07.09.2024 17:56:10

@laurenshof

"when someone posts a link to a paywalled article, posting 'paywall-didnt read' is rude, obnoxious and simply unnecessary"

I view it more as a statement that "I'm so glad you can afford subscriptions to pay web sites, but others are not so fortunate"

It's interesting how many, and how easily, some people simply assume that all others are as fortunate as they

Or maybe they just don't care

"that nobody says so in the comments worries me"

Yeah

Perhaps other people don't share your privilege

And while we're on the general topic of posting etiquette, posting a link into Youtube (or any web site, really) with no text whatsoever describing what content we're supposed to click through and watch is "rude, obnoxious, and simply necessary"

Stefan Bohacek

Stefan Bohacek (@stefan@stefanbohacek.online)

Föderation EN Sa 07.09.2024 18:06:52

@laurenshof Remember when Mastodon added reminders about basic social/online etiquette?

techcrunch.com/2023/11/22/mast

Honestly, they should remove the "Don't remind me again" option, and add it to the web interface as well.

Emelia 👸🏻

Emelia 👸🏻 (@thisismissem@hachyderm.io)

Föderation EN Sa 07.09.2024 18:08:55

@stefan @laurenshof I would definitely like to see this in the web UI. Though I'm not sure what it'd look like.

But I’d probably argue majority of the "reply guys" aren't using the official apps or the web UI.

Stefan Bohacek

Stefan Bohacek (@stefan@stefanbohacek.online)

Föderation EN Sa 07.09.2024 18:10:35

@thisismissem @laurenshof That's an interesting hypothesis.

Still, maybe just a little reminder that says "Life is short, not every post needs a reply" when you want to respond to someone who doesn't follow you might help.

Emelia 👸🏻

Emelia 👸🏻 (@thisismissem@hachyderm.io)

Föderation EN Sa 07.09.2024 18:24:04

@stefan @laurenshof yeah, but it's still a difficult design thing, like where would you put that in this design? There's not really enough room for it.

A modal dialog would probably appear clunky if it were only to go back to the sidebar to compose the reply.

Screenshot of writing a reply in Mastodon 4.3

(Medien: 1)

Stefan Bohacek

Stefan Bohacek (@stefan@stefanbohacek.online)

Föderation EN Sa 07.09.2024 18:27:43

@thisismissem @laurenshof Yeah, I'm not really a designer, so I don't have an easy answer.

But I do appreciate that you're seriously considering the idea!

Laurens Hof

Laurens Hof (@laurenshof@indieweb.social)

Föderation EN Sa 07.09.2024 18:32:47

@stefan @thisismissem i appreciate you taking it seriously Emelia, (and your work in general), but I don't think this is a problem that you can design your way out of

think you can only fix this by the community at large coming to a conclusion that this behaviour is unacceptable and should be called out. which is a bit of a challenge, to put it mildly, seems the wide consensus seems to be that this behaviour is fine lol

Emelia 👸🏻

Emelia 👸🏻 (@thisismissem@hachyderm.io)

Föderation EN Sa 07.09.2024 18:34:11

@laurenshof @stefan yeah, software can help nudge community culture, but can't change community culture by itself, that's on all of us.

Stefan Bohacek

Stefan Bohacek (@stefan@stefanbohacek.online)

Föderation EN Sa 07.09.2024 18:36:32

@thisismissem @laurenshof Absolutely agree that you can't fix this with technology alone, but I like the idea of little "nudges".

Not sure how much this would help, but considering how big of an issue this is, maybe worth trying?

Emelia 👸🏻

Emelia 👸🏻 (@thisismissem@hachyderm.io)

Föderation EN Sa 07.09.2024 18:40:27

@stefan @laurenshof you probably could create an issue for it, but I also think it's something the mastodon team are already investigating.

I think something that'd be really good to see is a documentation section on "UI guidelines & recommendations for client apps"

Julio J. 🀲

Julio J. 🀲 (@j3j5@hachyderm.io)

Föderation EN Sa 07.09.2024 18:45:22

@stefan @thisismissem @laurenshof fwiw, recently there was a conversation on "spanish mastodon" regarding alt text in images and why people use it and lots of people mentioned they've realized it was a useful option after seeing reminders on their clients.

I agree that little nudges can make a difference even if they aren't silver bullets.

Emelia 👸🏻

Emelia 👸🏻 (@thisismissem@hachyderm.io)

Föderation EN Sa 07.09.2024 18:33:04

@stefan @laurenshof I think eventually we'll see the composer move into a modal dialogue, at least for replies, but that's probably something @samhenrigold will figure out

sam henri gold

sam henri gold (@samhenrigold@hachyderm.io)

Föderation EN Sa 07.09.2024 18:49:01

@thisismissem @stefan @laurenshof I will get the composer into a modal even if it kills me.

Emelia 👸🏻

Emelia 👸🏻 (@thisismissem@hachyderm.io)

Föderation EN Sa 07.09.2024 18:53:00

@samhenrigold as an aside, I'm thinking modals in the moderation and admin tools could be useful too (just haven't had a chance to prototype)

sam henri gold

sam henri gold (@samhenrigold@hachyderm.io)

Föderation EN Sa 07.09.2024 18:56:43

@thisismissem i wanna figure out how to make settings feel less detached from the whole web app. regarding moderation stuff, i just started my own server for side project bots to experience it first hand.

Emelia 👸🏻

Emelia 👸🏻 (@thisismissem@hachyderm.io)

Föderation EN Sa 07.09.2024 19:51:54

@samhenrigold I'm leaning that there's three different things: settings, moderation tools, and admin. Currently those are all merged together.

I wouldn't recommend rewriting all those in the webapp in react.

Renaud Chaput

Renaud Chaput (@renchap@oisaur.com)

Föderation EN Sa 07.09.2024 19:56:49

@thisismissem settings should probsbly be moved to the react app. It would also ensure we expose those settings correctly in the API, and provide a better UI for most users. i al fine with admin/mods not be in the main app, those are quite specific apps for a small amount of users @samhenrigold

Emelia 👸🏻

Emelia 👸🏻 (@thisismissem@hachyderm.io)

Föderation EN Sa 07.09.2024 20:12:29

@renchap @samhenrigold yeah, that's my gut feeling as well.

Everything that's end-user related should be moved to API + React, but everything moderation or admin related should be on the react side, perhaps with a sprinkling of turbo or something

malena / bikes not bombs

malena / bikes not bombs (@seachanger@alaskan.social)

Föderation EN Sa 07.09.2024 18:47:06

@laurenshof i agree & thx for saying it. i think this culture is starting to shift because more and more of us are naming it and resisting it. I’d like to make little Instagram like images that link to a blog that explains the whole problem and taxonomy, so when someone does one of these, I can just reply with the image or link, mute and move on

Len Layton

Len Layton (@lenlayton@theblower.au)

Föderation EN Sa 07.09.2024 18:52:35

@laurenshof Maybe start warning people that the link is paywalled

Laurens Hof

Laurens Hof (@laurenshof@indieweb.social)

Föderation EN Sa 07.09.2024 18:59:13

@lenlayton no, before you know it people will start demanding content warnings for things like pictures of food

🙃

Jules

Jules (@afewbugs@social.coop)

Föderation EN Sa 07.09.2024 18:56:28

@laurenshof I completely agree, I frequently post paywalled stuff from my work machine because I forget I'm viewing stuff my university has a subscription to, and it just comes across as really obnoxious. If I come across a paywalled link posted here I'm interested in enough I find a way around it. Scihub exists.

Matthew Lyon

Matthew Lyon (@mattly@hachyderm.io)

Föderation EN Sa 07.09.2024 18:56:45

@laurenshof @jenniferplusplus On the flip side, a lot of times people aren’t aware that a link is paywalled when they shared it*, and asking for or sharing a non-paywalled link can help others

*i find it deeply sad that “it works on my computer” has come for hyperlinks

Jenniferplusplus

Jenniferplusplus (@jenniferplusplus@hachyderm.io)

Föderation EN Sa 07.09.2024 19:33:28

@mattly @laurenshof but I think that goes back to Lauren's point. Asking for a gift link is constructive and engages with the OP. "pw;dr" is entitled and dismissive

Mage Moss

Mage Moss (@Moss@beige.party)

Föderation EN Sa 07.09.2024 19:03:17

@laurenshof @seachanger Full disclosure, I made an identical joke post proposing pw;dr just a few days ago. That said, I have not and would not actually post that reply—I just back click and move on with my scrolling. For me it was not about intending to make a rude reply, but rather about getting frustrated with people on here posting paywalled articles. How am I supposed to receive or share your opinion if I can’t read what it’s based on. I think that frustration is universal, hence the popularity of the joke.